Episode 5: Paramedic to Peer Supporter: Navigating the Clinical World with Lived Experience

In this powerful episode of Mastery Vibe: Peer Support Unleashed, hosts Robyn Priest and Charlotte Armstrong sit down with Joe Johnson, a former paramedic of 20 years turned Peer Support Specialist in Colorado. Joe shares his transformative journey from the high-stakes, often jaded world of first responding to the heart-centered discipline of peer support.

The conversation dives deep into the "unspoken" side of the profession: the challenge of being "in the system but not of it." Joe discusses the importance of staying true to peer values while working alongside clinical teams and highlights the life-changing moment when a simple question—"Did you ask the client what they want?"—can shift an entire treatment perspective. 

We also explore the critical need for family peer support for first responders, the value of discipline-specific supervision, and why peer work is a professional role that deserves equal footing and fair pay. Whether you're a clinician, a first responder, or a peer worker, this episode offers a raw and essential look at the "rope" that connects us all.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:16

Hey, welcome everyone. Another cool episode of Mastery Vibes Peer Sport Unleashed. We've got the lovely Charlotte with us, as always. And we've got like we've got one of my favorite people from Colorado, Joe Johnson with us. G'day Joe.

SPEAKER_02 0:39

Hello, how are you?

SPEAKER_01 0:41

Oh, yeah, I'm doing pretty good because I get to hang out and chat with people on the podcast. So Charlotte, you know, we were chatting about who to have on the podcast, and you were like, Joe, Joe. And I was like, that's that's gonna be fun. Because you two can chat Southern. But tell us why you were like, Joe's a must on this podcast.

SPEAKER_00 1:11

Well, I was thinking back when I first met you, Joe, when we were down in Colorado uh running training and just watching your transformation from your previous career into this brand new area of peer support. And I was hoping that maybe you could start by maybe just introducing yourself and uh telling us a little bit about what that was like for you.

SPEAKER_02 1:34

Yeah. So, you know, first thank you for having me here. Um, it's great to see you two again. Um, so my previous career, I was a paramedic for 20 years uh in in South Louisiana. And so there's some, you know, there's some jadedness that comes along with that career, whenever you've been doing it for a little while. Um, and I remember whenever I was in sitting in that class, I didn't really know what to expect. It it wasn't what I was expecting, but it wasn't what I was not expecting, if that makes any sense at all. Um yeah, it I I was expecting to kind of get talked at for a week and a half about a lot of stuff that I already knew about HIPAA and and all these other suicide prevention things. And it was really a whole career condensed in a week and a half that was really, really eye-opening to a bunch of the preconceived notions that I had before, which is great.

SPEAKER_01 2:41

I love that. So I I I really want to kind of one of the things that people sometimes say to us is oh, people have these great careers, and then they become peer supporters, not the peer supporters saying that, but I I hear that in community because I think sometimes people don't get why people would go into peer support. So anything you want to share about like why the change would be great, and I know some of that might be personal, so share whatever feels comfy or not.

SPEAKER_02 3:26

Yeah, so I thought that I was going into peer support because I was in school to be a trauma therapist, and so I thought I was going to go into peer support as kind of a stepping stone, uh, you know, kind of get my feet wet a little bit, get a career, uh, uh, a uh resume built up a little bit, and then whenever I finish school, you know, I'm good to go. Uh, as with most things, that really kind of hit me like a sack of rocks whenever I realized, hold up, I don't need to do all that. I don't need to go to finish school. I'm not saying don't finish school. I'm certainly gonna because of all the debt, but I'm gonna, you know, it now it's it's become a big challenge for me as to whether I want to stay in peer support or go the clinical route. And I remember you guys saying, and I'm not gonna get it right, but something along the lines of we're part of the system, or we're not part of the system, we're of the system, or something along those lines.

SPEAKER_01 4:38

We're in the system, not of the system.

SPEAKER_02 4:42

Yes, in the system and not of the system. So that and whenever you guys said nothing about me without me, those were very big eye-opening things that I try to bring uh to my work every day. Um, peer support, it it's so great because we're able to kind of operate in so many different facets of mental health and substance use and all the other things. Um you know, I I wanted to be a trauma therapist, work specifically with first responders and military personnel. Um, and I I'm seeing more as my career as a peer goes on that I don't have to have all those fancy letters behind my name to still be able to do that. Um if anything else, it's that guy who's been there, who's done that, who's seen it, who can sit next to you and be like, that sucked. Let's talk about it for a second. And even not even have to do that, just it coexisting next to someone who has been through it is life-changing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:00

Yeah, I think um that is the piece. I know the first responder peer support is getting bigger and bigger and bigger across the world because of the um situations that first responders like see and hear, and you know, I've spoken to some who said EIP's great, but I have to keep describing my job, and I think that first responder peer support is I don't have to describe my job because the person that's sitting with me gets it, the person that's sitting with me is dealing with their own mental health or drug and alcohol, and it's just that I think that camaraderie about peer support wherever we are, right? Of oh, I can breathe because someone kind of understands, and and Charlotte, you probably gonna have a few words from the family thought around that too, right?

SPEAKER_00 7:20

You know, I I was thanks for sharing all that, Jo, and about you know the choices that you've made. And I know you highlighted, and then I'll go into the family stuff, Robin. You highlighted that the disparity of what peer supporters make versus a clinical job. And so I'm hearing that that might be one of the reasons why you're considering a different career. And Robin and I truly wish that this world would start to value the importance of peer supporters and adjust the income so that they can lessen that amount of debt or you know, the financial burden that they're experiencing so we can continue to do our job, what we love so much. But on the family side, I can't talk enough about I wish for every first responder, peer supporter, there was a family peer supporter that supported the family of the first responders. I there's just such a place for family support on any realm of peer support. And so when you're advocating for more first responder peer support, Joe, can you remember the family and just add that into your dialogue or your narrative, please?

SPEAKER_02 8:34

Absolutely. And you bring up a really great point that's often, you know, overlooked. Um whenever whenever people are in the military, I served in the military, I was in the Coast Guard. Um, I I didn't get deployed. However, you know, they have all the other branches, their members get deployed. And that's something that's often brought up is that not only does the service member serve, but the family serves as well. That's not usually brought up in in the first responder instance, but the family, the the wife, the husband, the the you know, the kids, they get to deal with get to, I guess is probably the wrong word, but they have to deal with the the family member that serves their community coming home after witnessing multiple people's worst day of their life. And that takes a toll on you. That takes a toll on the the first responder, that takes a toll on their family members, um, not to mention the birthdays that are missed, all the holidays that are missed, because you got to work. Um, so that's a really great point that yeah, the family needs support too, not just the the person serving. So, yeah, thanks so much for for identifying that.

SPEAKER_00 9:49

You know, and and Joe, as you were you were just sharing, Robin, I was thinking of when we were working uh with the pilots, and the one story that resonated with me when we were a few of the pilots would share stories when they would come home and they didn't know how to fit into a family that didn't need them around. And uh, and so I was thinking not only the piece around the trauma part of everything you've seen, but also showing up in the in this house to a taller child and a house that's been been running without you. And uh, and there's so many facets of where peer support can work for the person and then also for the family. You know, how to how are we gonna act when dad comes home or when mom comes home? You know, this is gonna be weird, not used to having them around, and and someone to talk it through, so to lessen some of that awkwardness.

SPEAKER_02 10:45

Yeah, absolutely. I I you know, I from the military side of things, I I guess I do want to give a shout out to the American Red Cross because they're very good about doing things like that uh with Operation Homecoming. Um, whenever you know service members are coming back home, they'll meet with with families uh and say, you know what, he's probably not gonna sleep in the bed for a month. Um, and vice versa. On the other side, hey, you know what? Um your wife and kids have been surviving for a year without you. Things are gonna look different. Um, so yeah, shout out to them. They're a great organization. I was able to work with them for a little while. Um, can you imagine having peers in that aspect?

SPEAKER_01 11:28

Jeez.

SPEAKER_02 11:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:32

Wouldn't that be amazing? There's there's just so many places we don't tap into that could be there. One of the things that I've been seeing in different environments, though, is there's still an expectation at times that um peer supporters will volunteer. And look, I agree. I I think you know, it's cool that there can be some voluntary stuff, but um I'm doing some work in the suicide prevention space at the moment, and someone was telling me they've got this great new safe space happening, and it's going to be staffed with peer support volunteers. And I went, but why do we have to volunteer? Is that not worth a job to be having conversations with people who might otherwise be making an attempt on their life? And I just I think when we think about peer support, yeah, I think there are some people that want to volunteer and cool. And I know there are some people who do it first responders voluntary. I know, you know, people do it in like pilot voluntarily as as part. I mean, don't get me wrong, they're getting paid for their role, but then there's also the people who are living on some kind of pension, and it's like, well, you will volunteer so it won't impact your money. And I'm kind of like, but if we had paid positions, maybe people wouldn't have to be on a pension. And I I just think we would never ask a clinician to volunteer somewhere like that. We would just expect to pay them. So I I think that whole piece about how much do we pay and do we pay for them is not often talked about enough because it is a vital component of like supporting someone with their mental health or drug and alcohol or stuff because people get it. Um, so yeah, I I always have a little bee in my bonnet about why is it that we're always asked that and other people aren't, but getting getting back to you, Joe, like are you able to share like about the environment that you work in now? Not about whether they're a great employer or not, but are you working in a more clinical or community environment?

SPEAKER_02 14:28

Yeah, um, so I work for a uh community-based health service. Uh we're a safety net organization, uh, safety net mental health uh organization. So um we get a lot of really high, high acuity stuff. And so you're you're probably gonna see some of the clinical stuff come out here. Um I work with a bunch of clinicians. I think it's a great opportunity to be able to learn. I think it's a great opportunity to be able to um see that side of the world. I've kind of reframed it as it's a great opportunity to educate clinicians about peer work. One of the things that that we do is, or one of the things that I like to do is every time we see it, I see a new clinician get hired on the little Monday morning email, is I like to reach out to them and tell them, hey, my name is Joe. I'm one of only three peer support specialists that works for this organization that covers the entire state of Colorado. And this is kind of what I do. Um, because I know that when you're in school, peer work is never covered. It's not covered at all. And so they think they kind of get this idea that, oh, here are these people with 40 hours of training that's running around like the Wild West, that's just not really kind of doing anything except kind of getting in our way, and every now and then saying, oh, well, you're wrong, or oh, you don't get it. Um I think that can partially be true. And we're also professionals, right? It's a professional certification, it's a professional, it's a profession. Um, we go through training, we have to have CEs, we're mentored, we're supervised, we, you know, we have to write reports that get audited by the state and the federal government just as much as a psychiatrist would. So to to to say that we're not on equal footing is a great injustice to this profession. We're we're just as much as the team. And luckily, my company has, I don't think we fully are able to understand what it is that peers can do, but they have certainly made me feel like I'm part of the team. Whenever I whenever I first started, I was in uh the substance use supervision. And it's about 60 other only clinicians, uh, and I'm the one peer in the group. And they're talking about all these ASIM diagnoses and all this other stuff, and I'm sitting here like silently Googling what all of this stuff is, so I don't sound like an idiot whenever it's my turn to talk. And so something popped up about well, maybe we should uh put the client on this medication and start doing this type of service for him and start maybe looking for him some uh inpatient treatment. And so I kind of chime in and raise my little hand, and they're like, Joe, and I'm like, Well, I know I'm not a clinician, but has anyone asked the client what they want to do? Um, and all of these PhDs and masters were just like, oh, I guess we should probably do that. And so after a couple of times of going, I'm not a clinician, finally, my supervisor goes, You're not a clinician, but you're part of the team, so you don't need to say that anymore. And so I was like, All right, that's all right, I've I'm cool.

SPEAKER_01 18:17

Yeah, I I love that story, right? I've heard that so many times that people go, uh, put your hand up. Um, I'm just did to ask the person because that might make a huge difference in whether they even consider what you're talking about, and that piece about just a peer worker. I hear that a lot, and I will always respectfully challenge that because that role is a professional role, is a discipline into itself, and dealing with our own mental health andor substance use kind of stuff is like studying, right? And someone once said to me, my practicum was my seven years of homelessness. I mean, not mine, but this person was sharing that. And so I always talk, if we actually think about the time frame that we're dealing with, our staff or families are dealing with us, we all have many, many, many PhDs in living with whatever it is that we have. So I'm I'm super glad that you get to be in that space and respectfully challenge those kind of ways. But I do have one other question around that hanging out with clinician space. And don't get me wrong, I am not begging clinicians. We need them. I believe we need the whole gamut. Um, and I know some of my peer support friends will be like, Robin Priest, did you really say like that? Yes, I think we need the whole gamut. But one of the things is how do you stay true to the peer values when you're in a clinical environment?

SPEAKER_02 20:25

That's a really great, great question. And yes, there is a role for clinicians. I'm engaged to a licensed marriage and family therapist, so I have to say that there's a place for clinicians.

SPEAKER_01 20:37

We kind of hope your marriage is gonna work now with that.

SPEAKER_02 20:41

Uh, I get, but you know, I'm able to educate her on peer work, and she's taken that to her agency, which I think is great. Um, so that can be a whole nother discussion. But um, yeah, like going back just a second where you said I'm just a peer. Whenever I worked for the Red Cross, people would say I'm just a volunteer. And we would actively say, You're not just a anything, you are a volunteer. You are a peer. Um, you don't see, well, it's kind of an ego thing, but you don't see psychiatrists saying I'm just a psychiatrist, you know. Um, but you're not just anything, you are a peer, and peers have saved several countless lives, you know, by just doing what it is that they're doing. Um, now going back to how do I stay in that peer space, um it gets difficult sometimes. It gets really, really difficult whenever you're surrounded by all these clinicians. And sometimes they don't necessarily know what it is that you do and what it is that you don't do. I'm not a snitch, right? So I'm not going to go have a whole session with my client and then come back and tell the clinician. Oh, such and such had a return to use, such and such was saying this and this and this. My space with them is just as sacred as a clinician's space with them. I don't like looking at clinician notes whenever I'm meeting a client because I don't want to come through them with clinicians' eyes or through a certain filter. So there's a lot of times where it's like, well, you should know that. You looked in their chart. No, I looked in their chart to see if they're, you know, if they need any casework or anything like that. I'm not looking at your notes. I am very fortunate enough to be able to have my peer supervision done by a peer-led organization, and that's Advocates for Recovery, Colorado. Um, I do that every two weeks, and I don't know if I would be able to do this job if I weren't able to meet with them. I have a great uh individual supervisor in both organizations, both my company and with AFRC. Um, I have a great team at AFRC that you know I'm able to, hey, I feel like I'm kind of veering out out of my lane and into this clinical world. What are your guys' perspective? And I get six different people, six different peers saying, oh yeah, maybe look at it, look at it from this angle. And again, I don't I don't know if I would be able to do my job if it weren't for them. Um, don't get me wrong, my organization is very peer, very pro-peer. Um, but again, if you're not working in that world, if you're not working with those specifics, you know, we have our own ethics that are very, very different from clinicians because we do very, very different work. Sometimes I'm able to leverage that, you know, better than a clinician can, which that gets me excited whenever I'm able to do that. But yeah, being able to recognize, which again is tough, hey, I think I'm kind of drifting out of my lane here. I need to get recalibrated.

SPEAKER_01 24:08

I love that you brought that um discipline-specific supervision up, that stuff that you do with FRC, because there's a lot of work being done around the world. In yes, we have line managers who manage us, and sometimes those are expected to do discipline-specific supervision, and they can't. It's not what they know, breathe. And so um there are a lot of places that are now looking at how do we purchase that external discipline-specific supervision that can look at values, how we're going with that scope of practice kind of piece versus just the day-to-day stuff. So I hadn't even like primed you up to say that. And you said I'm so excited. But Charlotte, we've been making you kind of sit in the corner a bit quiet. What you what what do you want to ask to say?

SPEAKER_00 25:22

Well, you know, I'm gonna throw it right back to you, Joe. You can tell us a little bit about your southern. You talked about living in Louisiana, but you're now in Colorado. Differences between the South and Colorado you want to share, or any other peer support wisdom you'd like to share as we close out.

SPEAKER_02 25:41

Well, well, I guess really briefly going back to the topic before this, was um a lot of it at my agency, a lot of it is client-centered, which is great. Uh, but again, going back to whenever I'm kind of veering off, I I when at AFRC they do say, Hey, what does the family look like? Maybe you can start talking with the family. Um I I try to make some referrals to family people because you know it's it's very different working with families as opposed to the individuals. Um so yeah, again, they're they're able to to kind of course correct to help me course correct. Um, but as far as geez, Colorado versus Louisiana, it's night and day. Um, I look, I love Louisiana. I lived there for 34 years of my life. My daughter was born there. Um, Louisiana is where I'm from, but Colorado is home now. Um just not just because um the culture is very, very different. Whenever you go outside here in Colorado, outside doesn't try to kill you with humidity and bugs and all the other things. Um but and not but and Colorado also has a um just a lot more resources than Louisiana does. Working in in the agency that I am, you know, we're able to help a lot more people than I would in Louisiana because of the resources that we have up here. Um, you know, you can take that for what it's worth. But I I I love Louisiana, my family's in Louisiana, I'm getting married in Louisiana, but Colorado's home.

SPEAKER_00 27:32

Nice. You know, and Robin and I enjoyed our time in Colorado. I have such fond memories of especially the training that we did with you and uh and all those little side trips and adventures. And you did take us to a wonderful Cajun restaurant in Colorado. So I got I got a little bit of southern cooking on that on that trip. Actually, that was the second time. It was not the the time that we were in training that you took us there, but I think it was our second visit that that you took us there. So thank you for that. And I was, you know, as you were just mentioning the family, I know that, and we're gonna plug advocates for recovery Colorado, they've got two family peer supporters there working at their agency, and they're doing a really great job. So I would imagine you're referring referring people in Colorado to them. But there's pockets of really great family peer support out there across North America. It's just harder to find. And uh, and so we always say, if you're doing it, share with each other, you know, what you're what you're doing so we can find you easier. And um, but thank you for doing what you're doing and staying in your lane because it is different on the family side to the individual side. So I appreciate you you sharing that too, Joe.

SPEAKER_02 28:49

Yeah. Uh one of the I think one of the best things that peers are able to do is network and you know, come to the table with, oh, well, do you know about this agency? Do you know about this program? Um, where one person, you know, we're it really is like a rope. You know, one person you can break. Whenever you get everybody together, you're you're stronger. Um, yeah, resource navigation is one of our big things, resource brokerage, rather, not navigation.

unknown 29:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:21

Well, it's always super fun hanging with you. I must admit, I love the accent. People think I have an accent, but I don't think so. Um, but I love the uh the southern draw. I I've got to say, when you said, you know, Colorado, you can go outside, not everything kills you. As an Australian, my head doesn't automatically go to everything in Louisiana will kill you. Although that being said, I'm a little nervous of the alligators in the bio and some of the snakes and stuff that you have, but it just I've never gone a place outside of Australia where I felt like everything did want to kill you, like here. But uh yeah, because I'm in Australia again at the moment, so um look, I just love these conversations. I love hearing about people's journeys, and um I look forward to um hearing about how you go forth and conquer the world. And I'm look, I can't wait to see pics of the wedding, because that sounds exciting, being married in the south.

SPEAKER_02 30:53

So anything you want to say for a final thing, Joe, before we, you know, how about yeah, you know, it it it might be sappy, but I guess this is a great opportunity, as any. Um, to thank you two for being able, for one, doing what you guys do, bringing the mission of peer support, not just to here, but literally around the world. Um that's that's not something to kind of put your nose up at. So thank you guys for that. And thank you for the wonderful training. For those of you who are listening, if you're ever able to get in on a training facilitated by Charlotte and Rob, 100% do it. Uh yeah, you you're not gonna be, you're not gonna regret it. Um, I think I've I've been through a couple other peer trainings with work. Some I was happy to go through, some not so. And the bar was set so high that I'm just like, this is this is a waste of my time here. Um, yeah, so so thank you. Keep doing what you guys are doing. Um yeah, rock on.

SPEAKER_01 32:01

I just when you were saying that, you went, I've been to other trainings and the bar was so high, and I'm like, does you mean they were super cool and we were crap? But I did get that's not what you meant. That you meant come to training with us. So, you know, if you were in North America, we are doing like a joint training with advocates for recovery in Colorado. Um, and it's virtual, so it doesn't matter where you are, um like just come play and you know keep an eye, we do stuff here and there now. So yeah. Thanks for chatting with us, Joe. Thanks as always, Charlotte. And we will close up and see you all next time, or you can hear us next time. Depends on whether you're podcasting or watching the video on YouTube. Okay, see ya.